June 25, 2004

Waste Management

Is anyone else having trouble downloading from the Waste network? I haven't been able to pull anything through it for days. What happens is, I select a glob of files and tell it to download them, it puts them all in the DL queue, then just ceaselessly cycles them in and out of the "downloads" tab, trying to connect on each one for a few seconds, then putting it back into the queue. No progess is ever made. I did manage to download a few things in the early times, but lately it's fucked. Insights?

In other network news, check out the new Streets and Gift of Gab, now available on my exposed flank.

Posted by chrisk at June 25, 2004 04:05 PM

Yeah I was trying to DL from you and it just stopped..... But Iw as able to pull from Walt and Ade still... So I think it might just be you K, but I will try and DL some more from others and let you know what I see.

Posted by: Keester at June 25, 2004 04:27 PM

I think the problem is with you K. Though seemingly only on your DL side, since I'm having no trouble availing myself (albeit at dreadful speed) of the very definitely free "Grand". And e lo, keester and graver have all successfully DL'ed in between your timeouts and aborts. I have a theory as to why you weren't able to bring down (mu)-ziq, centering primarily around the possibly unsupported special character contained in the file, but it's not actually in the file name, only in that of the parent directory. Who knows. Even so, that doesn't explain the current trouble with that Bulletin.

Posted by: ade at June 25, 2004 04:58 PM

I posted too soon. 20-some-percent into the first file and it's started the whole cycling through business, with occasionally brief moments of proper connection. Peculiar. No trouble DLing from keester, aside from the same dreadful slowness.

Posted by: ade at June 25, 2004 05:05 PM

Dammit! Now I'm not connecting to keester either. Something's rotten.

Posted by: ade at June 25, 2004 05:07 PM

Yeah, for the record, that seems-to-be-working-then-craps-out behavior that you describe is the same thing I see all the time, Ade. What about our settings? The default number of connections to maintain seems to be 2, but it seems to spaz when you leave it at 2, so I set that to 1 connection. I'm pretty sure it's worked since then, though (and it doesn't work now if I set it back to 2), so I doubt that's the problem. Any other suspicious numbers we can tweak?

Posted by: chrisk at June 25, 2004 05:44 PM

what is the waste network? seriously, i've not a scintilla of a clue, other than it's some mysterious peer to peer that everyone who's not trapped in the bronze age living in some backwater burg in NC has heard of and regularly enjoys the fruits of. and i'm sick of it, goddammit. i don't even get the nounatron thing. seriously, y'all gonna be losing some hit points pronto.

Posted by: mrp at June 26, 2004 11:15 PM

The nounatron thing is kind of a mystery to me too, Mark, so I'll leave it to somebody else to try to explain (you should check it out, though, there's some good stuff in there).

A Waste network is just a way to link a bunch of your friends' computers together, allowing you to browse the shared sections of each others' hard drives and thereby opening a channel for the efficient distribution of digital goods of every stripe. It's Napster, basically, except that a) instead of being jacked into the whole anonymous asshole conglomerate you're only connected to a handful of your own handpicked assholes, and b) all transactions are encrypted, so no eavesdropper can tell what you're transfering. In practice, it's a way for us to continue sharing our music collections in the face of a diaspora that's made the use of CDs, however fast one's burner may be these days, impractical.

But in practice in practice, it's not working very well right now. I've just noticed, though, that the website has version 1.5 available now. I'll try that out later today, and report.

Also, jeaun.com isn't letting me use italics in comments anymore, which is seriously cramping my style. Did we turn off html or something?

Posted by: chrisk at June 27, 2004 11:02 AM

Ok, the report on v. 1.5 is: disaster. With the new version, I can't seem to connect to anyone.

I even went so far as to read the documentation (from this jeaun). It mostly makes the whole enterprise sound hopelessly complicated -- it's all about port forwarding and DNS services and the horrors of DSL routers performing NAT and it's all-around the least fun thing I've read all day.

But I did manage to find one suspicious thing: there's a little box in the "Network" section of the preferences that says "Route Traffic". It was enabled on mine, and evidently shouldn't be, unless you're prepared to go through the aforementioned rigamarole re: port forwarding and DNS services. So, if you're still having the download troubles, try turning that off (unless you're configured to accept incoming links, like Graver). If you can see the other jeauns on the network at all, though, you're way ahead of me.

Posted by: chrisk at June 27, 2004 08:28 PM

I'm not sure if 1.5 is backwards compatible. If we decide its time, I'm fine with everyone trying to upgrade... but I'm hesitant to do it while y'all are relying on my server to start up the network. I'm not sure why you guys are having so many problems up/downloading. I downloaded about 300MB of RvB yesterday from walt no problem... relatively fast too.

Its good to share configuration issues and solutions on here. The instructions they provide are woefully inadequate and we need to play with configurations till its working. Chrisk, I'd suggest you try opening and/or forwarding port 1337 on your router/firewall if you have one. There's also a chance that its being blocked by some of our ISP's... if that's the case, we could switch ports relatively easy to test it out. Before we do that though, I think we need to make sure these problems are widespread and consistent through the course of a week or so.

Posted by: Graver at June 28, 2004 09:33 AM

I seem to be back in business here -- currently downloading The Walkmen from Ade at what looks to be a respectable rate.

I switched back to the old version (that's 1.4-alpha-3, for anyone keeping track), and turned off the "route traffic" option. I think that route option is what was causing all the problems.
I didn't need to do any port forwarding on my router -- I think that stuff is only necessary if you want to accept incoming connections, which, far as I can tell, we don't need to do while we have Graver as our backbone and so few people on the network.

I'm ready to make the switch to v. 1.5 when you are. It's a pretty painless process -- it takes all of half a second, and remembers all your settings.

Anyone made any progress on getting the Mac version to work?

Posted by: chrisk at June 28, 2004 11:16 AM

also consider, we should only turn off 'accept incoming connections' if we have to (can't open port 1337). Otherwise, I'll be routing all traffic through the main server... creating a 'star-shaped' network instead of a 'mesh' network. My upload speed is only around 256kbps so, that will slow things down drastically...

Posted by: Graver at June 28, 2004 01:15 PM

Okay, from what I can tell, here's the skinny. the reason I've been the only backbone for this is that I'm the only on who has the magic combination of a stable domain name and port 1337 open.

frankly, the network would be much faster and much more stable (ie: not going down when my power goes out) if we had a few more routing nodes. Its really not that hard... Ade, Piggy, Keester... I'm looking at you... and anyone else who can make that happen. Hell, you guys with University connections would be prime candidates if you think you coudl do it without causing issues for yourself (its not THAT important)

also, if we do this, I propose we upgrade to the new beta and change ports so the traffic isn't so instantly recognizable.

what say you all?

Posted by: Graver at June 28, 2004 01:34 PM

Yeah, that was kind of what I meant with "while... we have so few people on the network." As long as there's only one or two transfers, max, going on at a time, it should be manageable to have everything routed through Graver's machine, but it would be better, of course, to have more people routing traffic.

The problem is, I don't think it's quite as simple as opening port 1337 -- according to the Waste docs, if you have a router that performs Network Address Translation (and we all almost certainly do), then the IP address that Waste broadcasts to the network won't be right, and no one will be able to route through you. That's why having the "route traffic" box checked messes things up so much, because, with that box checked, you're telling the network that traffic can be routed through this-here IP address, when in fact that address is bogus, because your router is translating everything in its special private places. Their proposed workaround is to use a service that re-routes your chosen static IP address through to your (varying) actual IP address. I presume that this is what Graver did to get this whole thing working in the first place, and it looks like anyone who wants to route traffic will have to do the same.

I'll volunteer to try to be the #2 routing station -- I'll see what I can do tonight with the port forwarding and the static-IP services.

Posted by: chrisk at June 28, 2004 01:38 PM

Shit, we just cross-posted there G. I was actually responding to two-comments-back, and it looks like we came to the same conclusion: you need that stable domain name to make it work.

Want to tell me how you got that working, maybe by email?

I wouldn't worry, though, about switching from port 1337. Using a Waste network isn't illegal, there's no reason to hide it from anyone, especially when the traffic itself is indecipherable.

Posted by: chrisk at June 28, 2004 01:41 PM

I do not think a port switch is needed.... Though the upgrade might be nice.

K, I believe Gravy circumvented the static ip issue using dynamic dns. Sorry this is not hotlinked but I am lazy ;~)


Posted by: Keester at June 28, 2004 01:57 PM

-I used dyndns.org like keester points out. its fairly simple and you can use their pre-selected names for free. they're not cool names, but they'll work. I'll be happy to help you, though I'm betting dollars to donuts that you'll figure it out quicker than I could explain it. The procedure is fairly simple and well explained on the website.

-keester is, in fact, one laaaaazy cocksucker

-while we definitely don't break any laws by using the network... some ISP's and University Network admins really hate p2p file sharing and actually issue Cease and Desists at folks who use them. If none of us have had that problem, then we don't need to worry about it. But you know me, Johnny Worst-case-scenario.

Posted by: Graver at June 28, 2004 02:46 PM

-My box, while always on... can often be over-encumbered by my massive downloads of Waterworld and 26-hour versions of Dune.

Posted by: Graver at June 28, 2004 02:48 PM

Waterworld.... Dont even get me started, next you will be trying to tell me Thriller is a rocking album.......

Posted by: Keester at June 28, 2004 04:49 PM

Why... do you want to download it? I think I have it on there somewhere... look in the musak folder under "Greatest Album of All Time"

Posted by: Graver at June 28, 2004 05:01 PM

Ok, I've checked out the dyndns site, and I think I get it. But how do we actually take advantage of a second routing point? Once I get it working, does everyone have to type my address into their spots manually? Or is there a way to tell Waste to broadcast your static name instead of your bogus IP?

Posted by: chrisk at June 29, 2004 12:13 AM

One thing I know for sure is that my public key is Shippy.

Posted by: Shippy at June 29, 2004 09:10 AM

there's a field where you type in the dynamic domain name. its not terribly obvious, but its there. and then you broadcast your ip over the private network. that way, people can connect to you or me. either way, they're then be forwarded to the other.

Posted by: Graver at June 29, 2004 09:22 AM

Why is this causing a slow down though? Perhaps I am misunderstanding something but I was under the impression that once we connect and start a download it becomes peer to peer and not routed through your machine. No?

Posted by: Keester at June 29, 2004 10:15 AM

no. if the documentation is to be believed, the traffic seems to be routed through the nodes who can both send and listen. I don't understand the network topography very well, to be honest. You should read this document. it explains it fairly well, and they're pretty specific on this point... they even have a pretty picture.
the stuff I'm talking about is about half-way down the doc.

We could run tests to see what the real situation is. ie: you could download something off of ade or something and I could watch for activity on my server. lets do that later this week. My computer is without monitor or input device for the next couple days due to construction at my place. (still running though)

Posted by: Graver at June 29, 2004 10:54 AM

Graves my man, as long as you were going to go to the trouble of writing a message about the existence of a field in which one can type one's dynamic domain name, and even to go so far as to point out that it's not obvious where said field is, would it have fuckin' killed you to tell us the not-so-obvious whereabouts of the field in question?

I can't find that bastard noplace.

Posted by: chrisk at June 29, 2004 12:14 PM

well, I don't have it installed here at work, so I couldn't tell you where it was... but since you're so insistent, I've read through that document I linked to earlier and found it. I think its called IP-addresses... and I think its on the Network submenu in the preferences.

there's no screenshot, so I can't be sure... do a text search for "IP-addresses" on this page: here

Posted by: Graver at June 29, 2004 12:45 PM

Sorry, I should have made the issue at hand a bit clearer: I've read the Waste docs top to bottom, and I'm familiar with the part where it says "... you need to type in your static IP-address or your DNS address...".

Problem is, in the actual program, it only lets me mess with the IP address field, which it then tries to reverse-lookup to a domain name. I can't type in a domain name, which is what I actually have. Is that domain-name field typeable for you? It's sort of greyed-out for me.

Or do you just throw convention to the wind and balls-out put the domain name in the IP address field? (I guess I assumed it wouldn't let you do that, but I'm also at work, and can't try it just now.)

Posted by: chrisk at June 29, 2004 01:23 PM

it was typeable for me.. but I think I clicked a check box or something to make it so... if I recall its to the left of the field.... and I also seem to recall it didn't make much sense.

Posted by: Graver at June 29, 2004 01:31 PM

giving app support is hard when all you have are vague recollections to work with.

Posted by: graver at June 29, 2004 01:32 PM

My public key is "Shippy"

Posted by: ae at June 29, 2004 04:22 PM

So I thought about setting up some DynDNS action here on my end and before I did so, I did a little experimenting with forcing incomings through my legitimate WAN IP (just pasted in the one my router is currently leasing from SBC DHCP) instead of my bullshit LAN IP. I already had my router set to forward all connections on that port to my host machine. Immediately my connection speed to Piggy quadrupled. I hereby vow to at some point figure out how to make the DynDNS thing work, in the meantime, I'll just be checking my leased IP address every now and then to make sure WASTE is jiving the right one. Theory: if my router renews my lease when I'm not paying attention, y'all might not be able to connect. I'll see what I can do to get the Dyn going ASAP.

Posted by: ade at June 30, 2004 03:41 PM

I'm now a second routing node. It was cake. I recommend a couple more of you do it too. I've got my POS PII 350 desktop now running primarily as a waste server, sharing a directory hosted on my living room iMac via SMB. It took two tries before I found a DynDNS updater client that worked the way I expected, but after that it was smooth sailing.

ChrisK, I think you might have taken the IP Addresses portion of the Network Preferences submenu too literally, understandably, since the language they use is misleading. It works like Graver suggested, if you type the DNS name you registered at dyndns.org in the box that's not grayed out (Force incoming IP to: ____ ), it resolves to a hard numeric IP in the grayed out zone. A simple port-forward at the router (consult your manual) directs it to the proper box on the LAN and we're all golden.

Has any one but me noticed a speed increase since the second node was enabled?

Posted by: ade at June 30, 2004 05:26 PM

Did you have to do anything special with port 1337, Ade? Like, go into the router and forward it, or any such? I'd been thinking that something like that would be necessary, but with the direct IP address connection, I can no longer imagine why it would.

And, for the record, I had the problem again last night with the trying endlessly and fruitlessly to connect. This probably means that somebody still has that "route traffic" box checked who can't really route traffic. It looks like this is actually kind of a poor design on Waste's part: not only can one person screw up the entire network by having that box checked when they shouldn't, but the box is checked by default if your connection in DSL or faster, so you have to know to go in there and turn it off.

I'll try and rock a dyndns this very evening.

Posted by: chrisk at June 30, 2004 05:26 PM

Yes, I had done that earlier in the nascent era of the network, for shits and giggles mostly. I think it continues to be necessary, if only because with the setup described above, WASTE broadcasts out the IP of the router. If the router gets a mess of port 1337 requests, it has to know where to send them, since the router itself can't do jack with that information. All routers are a little different, so I can't really describe how I did it, but it was definitely really easy.

Something else, since Tim and I are on the same LAN, he would never be able to route WASTE traffic, since everything that comes to our common WAN IP is funnelled directly to my machine. Not a big deal, just cited mostly for illustrative purposes.

Posted by: ade at June 30, 2004 05:42 PM

As a carrot to those of you dragging your feet on routing traffic, when your machine is a sender and receiver, you don't have to even talk to Graver's machine and can make that direct connection. The batch download I was taking from Piggy went from 8K to 40K right away. That's also exactly why Graver never had any of the problems that ChrisK and I did re: connections.

Everyone right now either start forwarding your ports and dynamically updating a DNS name or uncheck the offending box!

Posted by: ade at June 30, 2004 05:53 PM

Yep, you definitely need to forward port 1337 to get incoming connections. Yes, your downloads could be choppy and crappy if you dont' have an incoming connection and still have the routing/incoming checkbox checked.

Ade's totally right. w00t!

Posted by: Graver at July 1, 2004 09:25 AM

Unfortunately, Graves, I think it's one notch more serious than that.

If you have that routing box checked, but you don't have all your incoming shit set up right, you can screw up everybody's downloads, not just your own. If you have that box checked, Waste will try to route other downloads through you, which, if you can't really route, will result in the afore-described endless cycle of connection attempts for whoever's trying to download. Like I said, it's not a great design.

Posted by: chrisk at July 1, 2004 09:57 AM

Yeah, I'd agree with you on that. The only evidence to the contrary is that I don't really seem to have any problems downloading regardless of you folks having screwy setups. Ade, are you finding any issues now that youre a proper node?

Posted by: Graver at July 1, 2004 10:19 AM

"Shippy", as you may recall, is my public key.

Posted by: Shippy at July 1, 2004 12:18 PM

No, I haven't had any problems since I've been proper, and I don't anticipate any either since I'm a node, all my connections can be direct and there's no real benefit in WASTE attempting to make any indirect connections for any tranfers that I either send or receive. If everyone opens up their jeauns proper, everyone can directly connect to everyone without any indirect routing.

In Mac client news, it sucks. Bummer for all you Cupertino-only households.

Posted by: ade at July 1, 2004 12:51 PM

You can use the 'em' tag to do italics. I may have inadvertently disabled the 'i' tag when I set it up to allow 'img' tags. Also, 'strong' works for bold text, although 'b' works just fine.

Using 'strong' and 'em' are the preferred way of writing mark-up since it doesn't assume a text interface. But, you'd have to be a severely dogmatic nerd to really care.

Any way, I'll go reenable the 'i' tag. Ahem.

My public key is '1023 37 81446934930029870226176058382443361651203501731066415393444718257657358064363453632297914083665400909132766931616792210589695428060334174669650885035050110752334115494809451309931967204649049121159255199018212085865881485189340619885981917713311660992718090142887522489338979706302984416411746281679427150459 rsa-key-20031023' ... which is short for 'shippy'.

Posted by: wadsbone at July 1, 2004 01:50 PM

So the network started crapping out again. And the only difference I could discern was that piggy had logged in since it last functioned. Piggy it looks like you've got the conch here. Uncheck that "route traffic" box.

Posted by: ade at July 1, 2004 05:03 PM

unchecked effective now. ill set up a dnswhatyamajiggy thing shortly

Posted by: piggy at July 1, 2004 05:58 PM

For the record, I am now officially jiggy with said whatyamajiggy, routing traffic painlessly to all appearances.

I used the Graver approach of coming at it through a dynamic DNS service rather than the Ade approach of direct-injecting one's current IP into the johnnyspot; it wasn't hard.

Posted by: chrisk at July 1, 2004 08:53 PM

Ok new question: how many connections are we telling this bastard to maintain? I've changed this quantity around a few times, trying to see what happens, but haven't been able to glean any patterns from what happens in the network status window. It's currently set to maintain 2 connections, but seems to be nonetheless maintaining about 6, which is the highest number I ever plugged into that box.

I kind of get the sense that the network status window doesn't actually work that well. Are we ready to change over to the new version? Say Friday midnight?

Posted by: chrisk at July 1, 2004 11:38 PM

ok tried to set up dynamic. think its cool. its updating atleast. anyways let me know if appears to be working from any end in addition to this one.

Posted by: piggy at July 1, 2004 11:52 PM

I also am currently using the Graver method with dynDNS, if that wasn't clear before.

Posted by: ade at July 2, 2004 12:49 AM

All I ever wanted in life was to have a method named after me. I am complete.

In other news... Yes, I'm in favor of a switchover this weekend. I can't say for sure when I'll have it done, but it'll definitely be by Sunday. I'll try to do it tonight when I get home. since we're all nodes now, it shouldn't matter if one of us drops out...

yay redundancy!

Posted by: Graver at July 2, 2004 09:10 AM

Alright, I'm switched up to the newest version. 1.5 Beta 2

Posted by: Graver at July 3, 2004 11:24 PM

I'm also switched over. Eagerly awaiting additional jeauns.

Posted by: chrisk at July 5, 2004 07:55 PM

I'm completely lost. Do we have any sort of guide to start from square one? I know I'm not the only one out there who has no clue. And please dumb it down as much as possible hospital.

Posted by: gs at July 5, 2004 09:17 PM

I'm lost. I mean....my public key is Shippy.

Posted by: ae at July 5, 2004 11:17 PM

I have nothing useful to add to this at the moment. I just wanted to say, "Jesus Christ. You leave town for a week and everybody's all techno-geek on your ass when you get back." I didn't honestly think I could go a full 10 days with no cell phone and no interslice of any kind. Damn, was it refreshing.

Posted by: e lo at July 6, 2004 09:38 AM

Graver sent me a little square-one instruction list when I first got involved, but it's a little out of date now, what with all that we've learned in the course of this thread.

The whole thing really isn't nearly as complicated as you'd think from reading these messages -- now that we've figured out what all the little buttons mean, it's actually pretty easy to set it up. I mean, my public key is just as Shippy as yours, and I got it working in five minutes once the relevants were in place.

The problem is that the Mac version sucks, according to reliable cross-platform investigator Ade. And it looks like the two different (but really quite similar) versions of the windows software can't even talk to each other, so I don't have high hopes for a windows-mac accord.

So, summary: I'd be happy to write a startup guide, but a) it would contain magic words that couldn't be made visible to the gen pop, so it would have to go out in emails, and b) would anyone want to see it? Are there any windows assholes left who want in?

Posted by: chrisk at July 6, 2004 09:43 AM

Send me a copy of your doc, that way I can send it to new users too. There's a few secondary folks coming from keester's gaming clan (yes, he's just THAT much of a dork) who will be joining soon and will probably need that little howto as well.

Posted by: Graver at July 6, 2004 09:59 AM

please send one copy my way

Posted by: gs at July 6, 2004 03:39 PM

I'd really like to see gs and ae and shippy on if only because they're all more likely to have new stuff I'm interested in. I'm still sleuthing around for a Mac solution. I wonder if Virtual PC would be worth a try? I've got a copy, but my machines are too slow to do any testing on.

The last time we tried to install the Mac client on Shippy's iBook, it wouldn't even let us generate any keys, shippy or otherwise. It'd just hang there. Maybe if we generated keys on another machine and imported them? I'm looking into it.

Someday we'll find a way to make this work. Persevere gents, persevere.

Posted by: ade at July 6, 2004 05:16 PM

To naysay for a second, Ade: even if you managed to import keys into the Mac version, it's still version 1.0, right? And if 1.3 and 1.5 can't talk to each other, I don't think 1.0 has much of a prayer, however Shippy its public keys may be.

The virtual PC approach sounds a little more promising, though I can't say as I actually know anything about that jeaun. I'll write the square one instructions down in any case, and try and get those out tonight.

Posted by: chrisk at July 6, 2004 08:30 PM

Ok, I finally had time to wade through all the posts that happened here since I was gone.

My $.02: I'm also routing traffic, and have a stable domain name through noip.com, and have port 1337 forwarded through my router to my local LAN IP. This is actually the way I've been set up since day one, but that hasn't been too useful to the group as a whole, since I've been gone so long.

I'm also all about switching to v1.5, as soon as I've finished this queue of transfers from Piggy (currently at ~35k/s -- not fantastic, but at least semi-respectable), so probably tonight.

And last but not least... Who are you, Piggy? Pardon my ignorance, but I don't know.

Posted by: e lo at July 7, 2004 07:00 AM

Has anyone else had a problem with their keys becoming corrupted? My confuser at work has twice done something strange with the keys. I've now had to regenerate my private (and thus my public) key twice, which means I'm not currently able to be networked from work. What gives? I don't recall the error message I got the first time around, but I just tried to start up WASTE here at work, and I was told that my password for my private key was wrong -- which I know for a fact it's not, and I've got WASTE storing for me anyway. Hrumph.

Posted by: e lo at July 7, 2004 08:28 AM

I've never gotten an error concerning my key. that's a new one on me. I'd suggest upgrading to 1.5 and seeing how it goes. of course we can get your key reimported


Posted by: Graver at July 7, 2004 09:02 AM

we've officially broken the Creed record. Just further proof that nerdy shit 0wNs!

Posted by: Graver at July 7, 2004 10:07 AM

My public key is Doodle-Doodle-Doo.

Posted by: e lo at July 7, 2004 10:55 AM

ChrisK, duly noted. I'd wager you're damn right about the version numbers.

Posted by: ade at July 7, 2004 11:52 AM

This thread is both the longest and the most boring nasty of all time. How is possible and congratulations to each of you.

Posted by: wadsbone at July 7, 2004 03:14 PM

Paging Dr. Jackson ... Dr. Jackson, please ...

Posted by: Nurse at July 7, 2004 04:54 PM

Is anybody else seeing reasonable speeds from most people but really slow (~3-8k/s) speeds from Graver? Or is that just me?

Posted by: e lo at July 8, 2004 11:07 AM

I upgraded last night. All is well though it would not see graver.org at first... Then it magically did. I will be working on forwarding the port and noding it up tonight hopefully. (I love that they chose "leet" as the port.)

I was wondering is any of you who are nodes have notice any kind of bandwidth issues since doing it? By that I do not mean your waste downloads faster or anything within waste so much as you notice a slow down when surfing and such? I game LOTS from home and ping is key so if it interferres too greatly with my ill killing skills I will be going back to non node rollin'

I did get a weird ass message about accepting E Lo's public key though... I accepted and everything continued to work fine but it was unclear as to why I was getting promted to accept it.


Posted by: Keester at July 8, 2004 11:42 AM

Keester, that may be because I had to generate a new public/private key pair one for my 'puter at work, on account of the bizzare key corruption business that's been goin' on over in this particular jeaun. I haven't noticed any slowdown myself, but I haven't done much PC gaming recently. I have a standing weekly game of Unreal Tournament, but I won't be playing this week, so I won't be able to test it then. However, I'd be surprised if there was to much of a drop, because the Waste architecture, if it's really a mesh, and not a star-shaped network (i.e. if most of us are nodes) should probably be a pretty low overhead network. And since the transfer speeds are pretty slow compared to the bandwidth threshold of most broadband, unless each of us are d/l from or through you at once, it shouldn't draw enough bandwidth to make too much of a difference, right?

Or not. Maybe I should leave the network stuff to the comptizing jeauns, and stick to cancer.

To that end, here's what I've learned at work so far today: mice don't really like Nair, so you've gotta knock them out first.

Posted by: e lo at July 8, 2004 12:09 PM

What about catipillars?

Posted by: Sundaykofax at July 8, 2004 12:41 PM

What about caterpillars? Are you asking if they like Nair?

Posted by: wadsbone at July 8, 2004 01:42 PM

I was wondering if they need to be knocked out first before applying the Nair. Maybe they like Nads best.

Posted by: Sundaykofax at July 8, 2004 01:57 PM

Hmm... Tough to say. Caterpillars don't make quite as good of a model for skin cancer, so I havent' done that particular experiment. Yet.

But if I were to have to make a guess, I'd say that everybody likes Nads best. Heh heh... nads.

Posted by: e lo at July 8, 2004 02:52 PM


Posted by: Shippy at July 8, 2004 02:56 PM

This may have been lost in the Nair shuffle, and it's still happening to me, so I'll ask again:

Is anybody else having trouble getting files from Graver? Everybody else's computer seems to be fine, but I can rarely connect to Graver at all, and when I do, the transfer speeds are horrendous.

Posted by: e lo at July 9, 2004 03:32 AM

I haven't had any problems with seeing or downloading from graver. I have not DL anything from him since we all upgraded so I will try something when I get home and let you know.

Posted by: Keester at July 9, 2004 09:15 AM

that was indeed lost in the nair shuffle for me. I have an explanation too!

I'm downloading/uploading a whole crapload of stuff from bit-torrent. It slows all my stuff down to a crawl. I'd use waste to do it, but none of you fools have movies. Not to worry though, I expect the d/l's will be done by the end of the weekend and then I should have a couple great movie series in the form of DVD images.

However, this should just be screwing up transfers with me, not everyone else.

I apologize for the issues, but a man's got to fill up his 200 GB hdd, doesn't he?

Posted by: Graver at July 9, 2004 09:20 AM

Does anyone know if there's a way to give priority to network processes, like cpu processes? That could solve my problems with torrent bandwidth gobbling

Posted by: Graver at July 9, 2004 09:54 AM

Oh, man, I thought we were off the Waste-based posts.

Why are the mice getting skin cancer? To test cancers or to test cancer treatments?

Posted by: Sundaykofax at July 9, 2004 09:56 AM

I filled up your mom's 200 GB HD.

Posted by: Shippy at July 9, 2004 09:56 AM

Ship, you couldn't fill up shit with that 1.44 MB floppy you have.

Posted by: Graver at July 9, 2004 10:07 AM

OH SNAP, you got SERVED!

Posted by: that guy at July 9, 2004 10:42 AM

SK: A little bit from column A, a little bit from column B.

There aren't really any great models for Basal Cell Carcinoma, the type of cancer on which I'm doing my thesis work. BCC is the most common cancer among light-skinned people, with more than a million cases a year in the US alone. There is a syndrome called Nevoid Basal Cell Carcinoma Syndrome, eponymously referred to as Gorlin's Syndrome, in which patients have a mutation in a gene called Patched-1 (PTCH1). PTCH1 serves as the receptor for the Hedgehog family of signalling molecules, comprising Sonic, Indian and Desert Hedgehog. Yeah, Sonic Hedgehog. That's what you get when you let your kids name genes for you, I guess. Anyway, Gorlin's Syndrome patients develop anywhere from dozens to hundreds of BCCs all over their bodies, along with a number of other abnormalites. So it's pretty clear that the Hedgehog pathway is involved in the development of BCCs. It's also clear from other work that BCCs arise from cells that reside in a region of the hair follicle called the bulge, whcih is the niche for epidermal stem cells. This same region is reactivated physiologically each time the follicle enters another round of the hair cycle. So our current working hypothesis is that reactivation of the hair cycle, as acheived by depilation with Nair, combined with one of our tumor models that gives us some tumors late in the animals' lives, may serve to cause more rapid development of tumors. These tumors we will then try to regress using various methods of shutting down Hedgehog signalling.

And your mom's hard drive is so big, when she sits around the IDE controller, she really sits AROUND the IDE controller!


Posted by: e lo at July 9, 2004 11:28 AM

Can't you just throttle down your bandwidth on torrent? The app I use for it lets you (bitornado).... It effects your DL bandwidth also so it will take you longer to download your gay midget porn but sooner or later you will be able to get your freak on. Beyond that I am unaware of a way to set priorities on the network level like that using either your OS or your router... So if you find a way make sur eto apss that along.

Posted by: Keester at July 9, 2004 11:49 AM

Your Mom's hard drive has so many viruses, it is serverely in need of Norton Anti-Virus software.

Posted by: Shippy at July 9, 2004 12:18 PM

I've been introduced to the Sonic Hedgehog thing. So if you're likely to have BCC, you shouldn't Nair all the hair off you body? Do you have to go buy a case of Nair from Walgreens?

Posted by: SundayKofax at July 9, 2004 12:36 PM

And by 'introduced' I mean the concept- not the abnormal cells.

So on this discussion we've had:

Waste Network issues
"My public key is Shippy" thing
This is the longest thread ever
Mice + Nair
Catipillars + Nair
Yo Mama jokes
Basal Cell Carcinoma

Posted by: at July 9, 2004 12:42 PM

My public key is "yourwastedhairlessmomwholistenstothrillerandwatcheswaterworldhascancerinherbasals".

Posted by: wadsbone at July 9, 2004 12:55 PM

That's probably true, Sunday, but we don't know for sure yet. That's why we're doing the experiment. That said, you'd go a lot, lot farther towards limiting the development of BCCs by quitting smoking (if you do) and limiting sun exposure. However, if the Hedgehog pathway really is important in the development of BCCs (in Gorlin's and otherwise), then that opens up a potential therapeutic alternative or surgical adjuvant therapy.

Posted by: e lo at July 9, 2004 01:27 PM

All right, that's it. Shut 'er down!

Posted by: Donald Rumsfeld at July 9, 2004 02:37 PM

Hey wait, that's my job!

Posted by: Richard Ashcroft at July 9, 2004 02:51 PM

No, your job is to be the lead singer of Verve. You are now under arrest.

Posted by: John Ashcroft at July 9, 2004 05:08 PM

For the record, I did in fact finally check out yer flank, CK. The Streets was new to me, and I sure do like it a bunch. Cheers.

Posted by: e lo at July 10, 2004 02:41 AM

i redid my website last night. it looks pretty now.

Posted by: lw at July 10, 2004 10:12 AM


Posted by: Ed at July 10, 2004 01:20 PM


it's mostly a showcase for shit i've written. but i redid it to look a lot more professional.

Posted by: lw at July 11, 2004 04:09 PM

dwillms is now in the network and routing traffic too. wyatt soon to follow.

Dan's got some good stuff, but all his encodings are WMA, probably because that's the default in WMP.

Posted by: ade at July 11, 2004 04:50 PM

Almost there ...

Posted by: Cock of Comment Centennaries at July 11, 2004 10:33 PM

I set up torrent to throttle back my transfers. this should open up some bandwidth for WASTE. I'll try to keep it this way.

Posted by: Graver at July 12, 2004 09:57 AM


Posted by: graver at July 12, 2004 09:58 AM

Was it good for you?

Posted by: Shippy at July 12, 2004 10:38 AM

It's fucking doing it again.

Does somebody have that Route Traffic box checked who shouldn't?

Posted by: chrisk at July 20, 2004 12:32 PM

I've noticed some slowdown recently to G-raver's comp, but other transfers (specifically from Piggy) have been OK. I just presumed that Graver was downloading more quadruple amputee pr0n.

For the record, I did have the "Route Traffic" box on my client at work checked, but I'm unable to ensure that I have clear access to that port, because of the security setup they have at the hospital. I just turned it off, so we'll see if that helps. But I've been set up like that for at least a week, probably 2, so I'm not sure that's it. What about Dan? He's new to the network, and might have missed some of the preceeding 100ish messages.

Posted by: e lo at July 20, 2004 01:05 PM

I don't think it's Dan. We've got him routing (I walked him through opening his port) and I can connect to him directly no problem.

I haven't had any trouble.

Posted by: ade at July 20, 2004 02:18 PM

OK.... well, it may be my office computer, which is no longer routing traffic, but I've had no trouble from that comp.

Posted by: e lo at July 20, 2004 02:50 PM

Is it possible that its your connection, K?

Posted by: Graver at July 20, 2004 02:57 PM

Hey, where'd everybody go? I don't seem to be connected to anyone anymore. And not just in the general 21st-century existential isolation kind of way, like where the steady breakdown of community beats you into a shivering solipsistic pulp, unable to express your inner life with any sincerity or to form meaningful bonds of any kind, but in the more directly distressing way where I can't see the contents of everyone's hard drive and download that Sufjan Stevens album that Ade has.

Are you guys having a network without me?

Posted by: chrisk at July 26, 2004 06:10 PM

K, I also noticed that the WASTE seemed to be wasting away. I never actually saw nobody on, but relatively few people have been on, and I figure Old Man Graver must have forgotten what that box with the flashing lights and all the keys does. However, I see you and am currently enjoying the friuts of your electronic jeaunz. Mmm... fruits.

Posted by: e lo at July 26, 2004 08:04 PM

My guess is that we at one point lost a lot of connections and need to manually reconnect?

I opened my Network Status window and typed in all the DNS names I knew (Graver, ChrisK, Willms) but could only connect to ChrisK.

Perhaps we need a store house of server DNS aliases?

Posted by: ade at July 27, 2004 09:15 AM

Hey guys. I shut my computer down over the weekend. I'm moving my websites over to a commercial server so waste doesn't interfere with them. After I do that (hopefully tonight) I'll start the server back up. I figured it wouldn't impact y'all because there were other supernodes.

In answer to your original question k, we were all in Michigan... answering calls from Christopher Walken.

Posted by: Graver at July 27, 2004 11:49 AM

Your mom, for example, is a supernode.

Sigh... lately I have nothing to add but random insults. Sorry.

Posted by: e lo at July 27, 2004 01:26 PM

wIs somethig up with waste? I only see myself and have not changed anything... had a couple of pwer outages and I guess it is possible somethign happened with that but I doubt it... did we upgrade again or something?

Posted by: Keester at August 11, 2004 02:22 PM

Keester, did you ever get this sorted out? I can no longer connect to the WASTE network from work. I'm not sure about from home. Anybody else having this problem?

Posted by: e lo at August 25, 2004 09:29 AM

I had the problem in question once -- turned out my IP address had changed. If you're routing traffic and using dyndns, you might want to check to make sure your dyndns account is up to date.

Posted by: chrisk at August 25, 2004 10:21 AM

I'm neither routing traffic nor using dyndns. Nor am I using KMFDM or MFDMK.

I don't know the network architecture here at the hospital, so I figured it would be simpler for everybody if I didn't try to route traffic from this comp.

Posted by: e lo at August 25, 2004 10:37 AM

If you open up WASTE and find you're not connected to anyone, you sometimes need to manually enter someone's DNS name to start the connection (after which you'll automatically reconnect to everyone else).

Also, in 1.5b2 the Network preference has an "auto" preference now that will force your real WAN IP through. The dyndns setup now serves more to make it easy for others to easily connect to you by typing your DNS name in the Network Connections box in case of disconnection.

Posted by: ade at August 25, 2004 11:14 AM

I don't acutally know any of the DNS names folks are using. Did we ever make a repository of them anywhere?

Posted by: e lo at August 25, 2004 11:34 AM


Posted by: ade at August 25, 2004 12:24 PM

Man, you're even more awesome than usual this week, Ade. Thanks.

Posted by: e lo at August 25, 2004 12:33 PM

yeah, this problem has cropped up a couple times since I moved my ip address. mine is graver[dot]is-a-geek[dot]com

Posted by: Graver at August 25, 2004 01:15 PM

WASTE! So my machine was down for a while, and Graver's down because of his move and Chris K is down for who knows why. Unacceptable.

Thanks in large part to Chris K I'm back in effect and more powerful than ever. Now that I've got a PC on line again I've found that I really want WASTE back up. Why don't all y'all who gots it fire it up and type in my DNS name (aden909 DOT homeip DOT net) so we can get these connections back up! Chris K I'm looking mostly at you because I want that Adem.

Posted by: ade at September 14, 2004 01:01 AM

Speaking of, I will put this on exposed flank on Nounatron, but I was able to get my hands on a working hack of D_V_D X_Copy. If any of you have a dvd burner, this is such a good program at making backups of your DVD's that they made it illegal to sell it in the states anymore.

I have a single layer dual format burner and this thing took a Family Guy disk that was dual layer and ripped and burned it in about 2 hours.... so it basically took an 8 gig disk and put it onto a 4 gig disk and I had to click the mouse 3 times to make that happen (4 if you count opening the program).... not to mention it utterly circumvented the copy protection on the d.v.d.

It will get rid of extra crap though... like my backup does not have a menu, extra commentaries, or different languages. You put it in and it plays and you have to skip and FF to get around.

Posted by: Keester at September 14, 2004 08:52 AM

Keester, I'm glad to hear that. I've wanted to get a hold of that for a while. Although, I've found that using DVDShrink works really well, too, with the exception of one pretty damaged disk that would only play in some DVD players anyway. DVDShrink gives you the option to retain the menu and extra lanuage/angle stuff or lose it, and still fit the whole thing on a single layer disk. Video quality is obviously compromised, but not so much that I can tell on my good-but-not-HD TV.

And happy 10 days late birthday to Ade, BTW.

Posted by: e lo at September 14, 2004 09:49 AM

OK, I'm back. I was disconnected because the only DNS name I knew to type into the box was Graver's, and he's MIA. Luckily, the new comments drew me to this thread, where I found Ade's address posted.

Posted by: chrisk at September 14, 2004 09:55 AM

Yeah I tried using shrink at first and it hosed up once and now it errors every time I try to use it... I even uninstalled and reinstalled and keep getting the same error. I am sure I will be able ot get it to roll, I just need to look into it some more. I got x_copy and got it running so put shrink on the back burner of crap I want to tinker with.

If you have any problems with x_copy (or any burning stuff really) I have read up and it looks like you need to monkey with ASPI (something to do with scusi controls and interface) I had issues initially and found 2 good utilities force aspi is one that will put a better version of aspi on your machine and check aspi will make sure it is kosher. If you need linkage juts let me know.

As an aside the reason I am all up in this now is I got a kyphermedia 8x dual format burner for 60 bucks(no rebates!) at tigerdirect because I recently got a minidv camcorder for when my baby comes and wanted to burn movies to dvd. I was leery of the off brand but when I installed it, it appears it is a lite-on burner that is just repackaged because that is what XP sees it as and belarc adviser does also... and lite-on is good stuff. So if any of you are in the market for a dvd burner and are on a budget this get a big thumbs up.

Posted by: Keester at September 14, 2004 10:46 AM

Nice get, Keester. I picked up an NEC 4X (that is upgradable to 8X by flashing a hacked bios -- works like a charm) from newegg.com for about $70. I was pretty pleased w/ myself until I saw name brand duall-ayer burners for about the same price... Oh well. That media's too expensive at the moment anyway.

Posted by: e lo at September 14, 2004 11:11 AM

Now if only I could see you on our WASTE ...

Posted by: e lo at September 14, 2004 11:12 AM

So there's a new app that's just breaking out (beta) called Grouper. It's like WASTE, but hobbled for the masses. Specifically, you can't share .mp3 files. (I wonder if .ogg .m4a etc. are also limited).

You can however, share files (pics, video, etc.) between friends. Its major flaw is that, like WASTE, there's no Mac client.

It's also prettier. I'm giving it a test run at the moment, I'll report what I find. First strike against it is that I had to enable ActiveX to make it work, and giving access to a company I know nothing about was a little disconcerting.

Posted by: ade at September 14, 2004 12:04 PM

Just to throw my $.02 in.. My server should be back up and in the jeaun some time late this weekend.

Posted by: Graver at September 14, 2004 01:49 PM

Weird... I thought I saw you in the list o' wastye when last I was on. When I get home I will double check and if need be I will use Ade's add toge ton so you can see me.

Posted by: Keester at September 14, 2004 03:28 PM

Sorry, Ade ... I meant 8 day late.

Posted by: e lo at September 14, 2004 04:59 PM

The verdict is in: Grouper sucks.

Posted by: ade at September 15, 2004 11:26 AM

So did we ever make the aformentioned repository of IP addresses? I'm pretty sure I've got everything set up correctly on my new machine, but I can't seem to connect to anybody. I know ade's, and I know graver's old one, but I think that changed.

Posted by: e lo at September 24, 2004 05:19 PM

Hey guys, who is SingFoom? Should I approve that person's key?

Posted by: chrisk at September 27, 2004 06:41 PM

ChrisK, that's me. I thought I changed the username, but I guess it didn't stick. So yeah, go ahead and approve.

Posted by: Colin at September 27, 2004 06:52 PM

Or, as I did, approve and begin reaping the SL2021 flankage ASAFP.

Joy. Thanks, Colin.

Posted by: e lo at September 27, 2004 07:39 PM

I've given the green light to a few Madison music dorks to join the network. I'm not sure yet what names they'll be using, but you may get some strange requests for key approval in the next couple of days. Kindly approve these as a gesture of goodwill to me and to the lord who is in heaven. (Or, if you're having a paranoid moment, you can check with me to make sure that each individual request is legit.)


Posted by: chrisk at September 30, 2004 09:58 AM

I've been working on getting my friend Christian (aka Kitch) in AZ up on this jeaun.

Posted by: ade at September 30, 2004 10:28 AM

I've also been working enwastifing my buddy Alex, so you may see some sort of Alex-based request soon.

Posted by: e lo at September 30, 2004 10:55 AM

Does anybody have any experience with having two WASTE clients on the same router? I'm haveing trouble setting my roommate Alex up. We, unfortunately, both have the same externally visible IP address, although I have a static IP set up. I'd like to be able to continue routing traffic and have Alex on the network, as well.

Posted by: e lo at October 1, 2004 08:21 AM

E Lo: This is a good question. Tim, Colin and I are all on the same router here on the 909 mega-net. I "route" and they don't.

I'm not sure that it works perfectly, since I'm not sure exactly how I connect to them via WASTE or how successfully anyone else connects to them remotely, if you get what I mean. When I test D/L from either of them I get transfers in the 200K/s range rather than the 30K I get from everyone else, which would suggest that we're communicating entirely behind our router.

You said you were able to get all that SL2021 from Colin's flank, so that leads me to presume our set up is all good. Curiously late last night I saw in the Network Connections window what looked like you downloading from Tim at speeds up to 100K/s but only for like 10 seconds and then it would slow all the way to zero and stay there for a while before it went back up in to the 90K/s range. Maybe it's not set up so sweet?

Anyway, the way we have it set up is no one routes but me and Colin and Tim have selected the "Auto" button in the Network Preferences -> Your IP Address. The router forwards all traffic on port 1337 to my machine. Since Tim and Colin aren't routing, the connections they make are more passive and one sided, ie. they're not trying to talk and also listen like those of us who route do.

Specifically, what kind of trouble are you having?

Posted by: ade at October 1, 2004 12:52 PM

Ade, that's good info. Here's what I have to contribute, a la Colin and Tim. I havent' actually gotten much from Colin, but that's only because I haven't seen him on the network much. I didn't have any trouble starting the d/l's, though, when I did see him. As for the speed d/l from Tim, I'm not sure about what you saw, because I wasn't looking. However, as I write this, I'm nabbing from Tim @ the usual ~25-30 k/sec, so that looks all good.

My trouble with Alex's machine is getting it onto the network initially. I've got his public key on my machine, and mine on his (and his network password set appropriately), but I don't seem to be able to get his computer to connect to my static ip. I'm the only one routing, and his is set to autodetect. How did you get Tim and Colin on initially? Did you set them up with your public key as the initial one, or did you have someone else import it? What I mean to say is, am I going to have to email yet another public key (Number... 5?) to Graver and have him import it? (Or email it to you and have you do it, I suppose.) Or can I do it all locally, i.e. at Club Traver?

Posted by: e lo at October 1, 2004 02:31 PM

When you say "I don't seem to be able to get his computer to onnect to my static ip" do you mean the static IP you've set for your computer behind the router (your LAN IP, eg. 172.16.0.XX, 192.168.0.XX or 10.0.0.XX), or do you mean the DNS name you've set to forward to the real WAN IP your modem leases from your ISP and your router then redistributes? It has to be the latter.

Just to clarify, the following things are all in place?

1. Alex set to auto (yes)
2. You have your router forwarding 1337 to your machine? (yes?)
3. You set to route (yes)
4. Any and all software firewalls have 1337 open?

If you have a DNS name that updates to your router's dynamic WAN IP, Alex should type that in to initially connect to you. BTW, if you do have a setup like this, what's your DNS name? Email me (aden[at]jeaun) with that one of these days so I can actually make the DNS storehouse doc.
If you don't have a updating DNS name, from Alex's computer, go to whatismyip.com and type that number in his Network Connections window. That should work.

Posted by: ade at October 1, 2004 04:16 PM

Ade, when I say "my static ip," I mean the static DNS name that is forwarded to the Communist Cable modem's WAN IP. #'s 1 through 4 are yes to all. The updating DNS name I'll email to you presently.

I'm going to diddle around with it a bit more tonight, and if I can't get it set up, I'll spend a little time drinking, then try it again. That always works.

Posted by: e lo at October 1, 2004 05:15 PM

Well, I got that sorted out, and Al's on the network now. Turns out, I forgot to set my new computer to obtain a static IP from my router, and it was forwarding port 1337 to the wrong LAN IP address. Rah.

Posted by: e lo at October 2, 2004 05:15 PM

Anybody got Unreal 2K4 they can expose on the old flank?

Posted by: e lo at October 3, 2004 04:55 PM

While not my general cup o' tea on FPS's I think I might have it at home... but I am afraid it might be 2k3. I will check it out when I get home and let you know.

Posted by: Keester at October 4, 2004 09:23 AM

sorry on the sketchy up/down behaviour my waste server has been demonstrating. My comcast has been sucking balls. They're sending ANOTHER tech out to check on it wed. I'll keep my fingers crossed, but I sure won't hold my breath.

Also, I approved Al, but screwed up on chix0r. so, if someone wants to send me her pub key I can approve her.

Posted by: Graver at October 4, 2004 10:39 AM

Well you appear to have this worked out now because you were pulling from me at over 30k when I looked last night. Between you, chixor, and asher I had basically all of my up bandwidth going to waste, so no digital murdering for me last night. (which was good because I was supposed to be working on a performance appraisal anyway)

It's good to see more peeps getting all up in the waste oompah-loopah style.

Posted by: Keester at October 7, 2004 07:44 AM